In this conversation I speak with Oliver Burkeman about the philosophical and practical implications of our finitude, and how to meaningfully use our limited time.
We discuss
Mortality and the philosophical implications of our finitude
Zen Buddhism and Taoism on the topic of finitude
Eastern vs Western philosophies and cultures
Unconventional approaches to time management
… and other topics
Watch on YouTube. Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or any other podcast platform. Read the full transcript here. Follow me on LinkedIn or Twitter/X for episodes and infrequent social commentary.
Episode links
Oliver’s website: https://www.oliverburkeman.com/
Oliver’s Books:
Other books:
Rest - by Alex Pang
Time Surfing - by Paul Loomans
Timestamps
00:00 Mortality and Immortality
00:57 The Paradox of Infinite Time
02:51 Polls and Public Opinion on Immortality
05:09 The Concept of Finitude
06:56 The Philosophy of Time and Life's Shortness
10:03 Accepting Mortality and Denial of Death
19:49 Eastern and Western Philosophies
45:14 The Paradox of Productivity and Burnout
45:45 Critique of Capitalism and Personal Goals
47:19 Finding Purpose in a Capitalist System
48:33 Introducing 'Meditations for Mortals'
54:40 The Three to Four Hour Rule
01:04:20 The Fallacy of Effort Equals Worth
01:07:57 Parenting and Personal Development
01:15:06 Closing Thoughts and Book Recommendations
Transcript
This transcript is AI-generated and may contain errors. It will be corrected and annotated with links and citations over time.
[00:00:00] Matt: Oliver, we're going to be talking about mortality and making the most of our precious time on the planet. Um, If you were given the option to live forever in good health, in good mental health, in good physical health, would you choose to do so?
[00:00:14] Oliver Burkeman: I don't think I should choose to do so, uh, uh, and I'll explain why. Um, but there's, it's sort of two questions, isn't it? Would it be a good idea? And would I be unable to resist? Um, I, I, I've got to say that I, I hope I'd be able. to resist, uh, literally living forever. I think, you know, big extensions to human life could be a really remarkable and wonderful thing.
But, um, but that idea of living forever, um, I'm by no means the first person to observe this. Uh, various philosophers have sort of made the point in the past that there's something that would be essentially. Hellish about that. The way I talk about it is that I don't think anything would matter. I don't think any question about how you used your time would matter.
The question of whether you should take one course in life or one way through the day or another, you know, uh, choose one career or another, have one experience or another. The answer to what you should do would always be like, who cares? Because there would always be infinite time. There'd be no scarcity to time.
And as a result, somehow, no, no value at all.
[00:01:29] Matt: And yet you find yourself worried that you might not be able to resist. Um, what is the, what is the source of this contradiction?
[00:01:37] Oliver Burkeman: Well, I think being finite and sort of acknowledging what it means for us to be finite is pretty terrifying and uncomfortable. And on some level, all that I write about. Think about is, is this question of like what that leads us to do and how we can sort of gently take ourselves by the hand and guide ourselves kindly back towards looking that in the face.
Uh, it may well not be possible to sort of completely reconcile to finitude or to mortality, but we can do a little bit better. And so, you know, given that I'm as much of a basket case on this matter as anyone, and, uh, that's, I'm sort of writing specifically about things that I struggle with. Um, I can imagine that, uh, if you caught me in the wrong mood or underslept or at a very anxious moment when you offered me that, uh, that, that offer, uh, it would be very tempting because it would be, uh, it would seem like freedom from, from all those things.
And in fact, it would be freedom from those things, but it would be, uh, in exchange for a price that I think wouldn't be worth paying,
[00:02:51] Matt: Yeah, there was a, there was a poll in the New Scientist a few years ago. Um, in the UK that asked people this question. And I think in that poll, only something like 20 percent of people would choose to live forever if given the choice. Um, and I personally found that a little bit surprising again, given, as you've just said, it would be.
It's almost a temptation to accept the offer even in with the knowledge of the sort of like the philosophical basis for this detracting from meaning in life and so on. Um, do you, do you find that surprising? Do you find it surprising that there was such a low response rate for people who would choose to live forever?
Yeah,
[00:03:34] Oliver Burkeman: I gave a sort of a philosophical sort of reasoned explanation and, you know, most people have other things to do with their lives than spend a lot of time thinking and reading about that kind of stuff, so they probably don't naturally go to that. But I do think that emotionally, if you just sort of feel the thought, That you're going to be here forever. Like there's something I can touch into anyway, that purely pre verbal and not intellectual at all, which is just kind of appalling. You know what I mean? That sort of, um. If we're talking about literally forever, like that really, it's very difficult to get your head around. Maybe one can't, just as one can't ultimately get one's head around the fact that one isn't going to be here forever.
But, but it's, there's something about that, that I think if I can understand why people in a survey would, if they sort of thought, if they reflected on it deeply, regardless of whether they had any sort of, you know, training in philosophy or anything like that, you would, Sort of find something very nauseating About about that thought I think it's I would be fascinated to know The result if you suggested increasing the human lifespan a healthy human lifespan to a thousand or something, right?
Something kind of massive a huge boost in the amount of life and experience we got but one that was still coming To an end, I think that could have some very different responses
[00:05:04] Matt: I mean, I guess that's true at the same time as, as, Not wanting to live forever. I think almost everyone would complain that life is too short, um, very short. And, um, I mean the, the title of, uh, your book, Four Thousand Weeks, um, you know, the number four thousand weeks refers to the, the length of, of a human life. And this, roughly.
yeah, I love, I wish we knew exactly, but, uh, This strikes people as shockingly short, not just slightly short. I mean, one of the anecdotes that you give in that book was asking somebody to estimate the length of the human life. And I can't remember the number, but I think it was in the hundreds of thousands.
Yeah.
[00:05:45] Oliver Burkeman: I was so freaked out when I first read 4, 000 is roughly in two senses, right? One, we don't know in our own cases. And secondly, actually the average human lifespan these days in the developed world is a bit higher than 4, 000, but, but that's not a nice round number. So I went for the nice round number.
Um, uh, of course, unless you're a newborn baby. Listening to or watching this, uh, that doesn't really make much, it's still going to be less than 4, 000, right. And for any given person, um, uh, and I, yeah, I went around asking various friends and one good friend of mine said 150, 000 was, was her guess. And I'd sort of specifically said like, what would you guess?
Like, don't do any mental arithmetic because then people start thinking. Um, and she said 150, 000. And what I like about that, um, error is that if you, if you If you double 150, 000 to 300, 000, add a bit, 310, 000, I think it is, you get the duration in weeks of all human civilization since the ancient Sumerians.
So it's not, um, it's not just off. It's kind of off in a kind of majestic, uh, way. Life is very, very short and the use of weeks was obviously, uh, you know, my attempt to sort of, uh, Drive that home. Of course, you could just say short as compared to what, right? I mean, it's a lot longer than it used to be and if the comparison is to the infinity of the cosmic eons, then there's there's no finite length that wouldn't be incredibly short.
So I suspect that if technologies and developments in medicine enabled us all to live to, let's be a bit more reasonable, let's say 400. Um, You'd, I think you'd sort of assume that over time people's, uh, you know, fears and capacity for denial and all the rest of it would just sort of reconfigure so that that would then seem too short and incredibly brief.
Uh, because again, you're comparing the brevity. It doesn't really make any sense, right? It's like dividing by zero. You're comparing what feels brief to what doesn't. Actually sort of time going on forever.
[00:08:04] Matt: Yeah, but there is the question of why it does feel so brief. I mean, again, um, just from a mathematical perspective, if infinity is something we don't want and, um, zero is something we don't want, there's some optimal point in between. It's clearly bigger than 4, 000 weeks. Um, you know, why is it not 4, 002?
Why do we have this sense that 4, 000 weeks is, is drastically short? I think, I think most people share this feeling. Um,
[00:08:29] Oliver Burkeman: I,
I mean, I think that's true of however you think about life, whether you think about it in years or days or weeks, but I think one of the things that is True about our experience of time that is kind of really highlighted by just using the week's, uh, denominator. Um, if I'm using that word correctly is that, um, We all have immediate experience of a week passing very quickly and yet the number 4, 000 Uh feels like you know is a low number if you express it in years you get a much smaller number But It doesn't feel so easy to waste a year.
Doubtless. Some people think they have done that, but it's not so common. If you express it in days, you get a huge number. Um, so the fact that it's incredibly easy to waste a day doesn't feel, uh, like such a big deal. I think that there's something about just the way of expressing it, not the actual absolute length of it, that really.
focuses on this sense of, of transience, um, which is not quite the same point as, um, exactly how much of that transience you get, right? There's all that psychological stuff about how it feels like it speeds up as you get older and all the rest of it. But it really is this combination of it being short and just the sense of it, like passing whether you, Want it to or not, and despite whatever you do, uh, that is really fuels, I think the sense of sort of insecurity and mild terror comes with these reflections.
[00:10:02] Matt: yeah, it does. Um, well, well let's, uh, let's talk about then the, the topic of, um, accepting one's mortality, and I guess the, the flip side of that coin, which is denial of, of death, um, topics that are, are central themes in, in your books. Um, again, a lot of this, um, this topic area brings up this. interesting sort of feeling of paradox, I think, where it feels like around every corner, there's some sort of perceived paradox.
And one here is, you know, everybody dies, there is death all around us, we see the evidence all around us, we're exposed to it. And yet people find it so difficult to come to terms with their own finitude. What do you think is the, is, you know, what underlies that? What causes that? Why is it so hard for people to come to terms with this?
[00:10:52] Oliver Burkeman: Yeah, it's totally fascinating. And I think it's in my earlier book, the antidote, where I, one translation of the, um,
uh, what am I thinking of? It's the, um, the Mahabharata, right? The Sanskrit epic, um, where there's a famous exchange about, um, uh, how, How mortality and death is like the most common thing in the world to see, especially in times when those kinds of scriptures were, were written hit today. We hide a lot of it behind closed doors and yet many of us sort of, or most of us go through our days as if we're going to be the only exception, uh, to this rule.
And I think, you know, it's, it's, it's fairly straightforward in a sense. Uh, lots of people, Ernest Becker and others have sort of written incredibly eloquently on this. It's, it's a, it's an unmanageable thought, uh, that one would. No longer be here for me I always think about it in the context of like all the things that will happen You know in the years and decades and centuries afterwards.
There's something sort of completely offensive about the idea that that I won't be There for that a sort of FOMO I suppose in a way Um, and I think it's worth saying, you know I I don't really think of any of the books that i've written as really being about like death and dying I don't think in my own life.
I'm particularly You know, uh reconciled to my own mortality. I have at this point in my life not had you know Much in the way of direct personal experience of sort of very close to me bereavement. Um, and so I'm always a little bit, um, I always feel a little bit self conscious sort of the idea that what I'm saying is like, you know, you must confront your, your mortality.
I think what I'm confronting, and certainly this is a very central thing for me personally, as well as in the world at large is. And this is why I tend to use the word finitude more than I do mortality, right? It's one specific, fundamental ramification of something that follows from the fact that we die.
It's not so much that moment or that experience or those months, um, It is the fact that every single second is, is different as a result of the fact that eventually they will, they will end. So anybody who cares about procrastination or productivity or feels rushed or impatient, anyone is automatically on some level.
Engaging with. the finitude of their time. And, uh, you know, this is where it gets all a bit, uh, Heideggerian and we can, uh, we can, we can go there if you want, but, um, it's that sense in which death infuses every, every minute, uh, with, with finitude, I guess that I'm really sort of, uh, a bit, a bit obsessed with.
[00:14:04] Matt: Yeah, I guess, um, you know, there is, there is the question of whether, to what extent is it, is it really useful to consciously sort of accept that finitude? Because again, like back to like paradoxes on the one hand, accepting one's finitude, um, Sort of means, okay, well, time is, time is precious. I need to, to guess, use my time wisely.
Um, but then on the flip side of this, that puts pressure on people and it can be overwhelming and in the space of, of all the things that one can do because time is so precious, it becomes difficult to decide and to do anything. And we end up floating in decision paralysis and actually using our time.
Less well as a result. And so there's this difficult tension there. Um, I mean, and, and one, one part of that question is we would be just be better off denying the whole thing and, and not even thinking about affinitude. How do you grapple with those, with that sort of tension?
[00:15:03] Oliver Burkeman: I think it's, um, I, I think there's sort of three attitudes to have, uh, you've, you've explained two of them there, I think really well. Um, but I think this is a case of that, um, I'm, I'm insufficiently, uh, I don't know what to call it, but it's a case of that famous meme, social media, right? Of the bell curve graph that says like, there's sort of the starting stage, there's the middle stage, and then there's the, the final stage. And I think sort of denying the reality of, of mortality is, and the finitude is obviously where one naturally goes.
Certainly I've spent plenty of my life pursuing forms of personal development and the rest of it that on some level have that as their, as their sort of underlying agenda. And then there's this stage where it's like, okay. Time is very short. We must really focus on, on, on ringing value out of every bit of it.
And that's a big, that's a big thing in the culture, right? That sort of, you only live once, you know, kind of things to do before you die, all the rest of that. And, and, um, and it's not necessarily a bad way to live if it's something that. One finds, you know, enlivening and exhilarating, I sort of experienced that as incredibly stressful.
And so, and that's sort of the place on the, on the process to the title of 4, 000 weeks belongs to, right. It has that sense of like, it's really short, you better really get moving. And uh, occasionally the book has been sort of described like that. public places, and then I, and I wonder if the person doing the describing has, has read it, because I think, I hope, that by the end of it, at least, I'm offering a perspective that's sort of in the, the third level of this, which is that if you really, deeply internalize what comes as a result of finitude, and I don't for one minute think I've sort of done this perfectly, but it's the direction in which I'm trying to point myself and other people, then it stops being Stressful and becomes kind of relaxing again, relaxing in a kind of energized, motivated, empowered way, because I mean, you may have a better way of expressing this sort than I do, but one of the ways I always think it makes sense is like. Just in the context of say, having lots and lots to do like the standard busyness aspect of all this, if you think you can live forever, then it's hard to feel too bothered by busyness because you've got all the time in the world. If you think time is incredibly precious, it's really awful that you have to, um, make choices about what to do and motivate to get the most important things done right away because time is slipping away and you know, you're finite and you only live once.
If you really let it sink into your bones, just how big the mismatch is Between all the things that would be wonderful and meaningful to do. And the tiny number that anyone can hope to do in a life. Then you sort of let go of fighting that fight, right? You stop trying to. Get your arms around everything that matters you stop ever thinking that Getting to the end of all the theoretical to do lists in the world is something that you're going to be doing or your to do lists and you just think okay, I'm very small the Space of things that I could do is essentially infinite So all I'm ever going to be able to do is pick a few and do them and give myself to them And this is the lens that in my Most recent book that I think might talk about later, but my most recent book I talk about as, uh, uh, it's worse than you think, right?
And why this is good news. Um, and this goes for all sorts of ways in which we're limited as humans. But, but in the sense of the amount of time we have, I think that's crucial. If you're still kind of thinking, okay, I've got to go base jumping every weekend and I've got to launch a multi billion dollar startup that amazes everybody, and I've got to be really extraordinarily unusual in order to really say that I lived.
In a way, you're still in the mindset of thinking that. this finitude is something that can be conquered. Um, that eventually if you did well enough and stood out enough, you'd somehow have not made it apply to you. I don't know if that's clear, but so when you really see that there are no, there's no escape, I think it's actually quite relaxing and not stressful.
There you go. A very long answer to it, to that question.
[00:19:47] Matt: No, no, very good, very good answer. And it actually draws on many themes that um, anyone who's familiar with um, Taoism or Zen Buddhism, would, would kind of get that sense, there's this um, I don't know, I think Taoism articulates it very well, you know, you can't, you can't actually name, you the thing, um, because that's, that's not really getting at it.
And, um, when reading your work, it strikes me that there are many times in which it's quite clearly influenced by, um, Eastern philosophies, particularly Zen Buddhism, maybe Taoism as well. Um, and I think throughout your, your, um, books, many specific individuals in these traditions are named, um, Maybe let's, let's linger on that topic for a bit.
Um, what do you find, um, sort of attractive or compelling about, um, well, maybe Zen Buddhism in particular?
[00:20:40] Oliver Burkeman: Yeah, I mean, Zen Buddhism, Um, after a long sort of journey through different bits of Buddhism and other traditions, um, is really somewhere that has made a very big impact on me in the, in recent years, especially and Taoism, which I think, I think it sounds like you may actually know more about this than me.
And I certainly don't know much about it, but I think it's true to say that, that Zen is the place where Buddhism sort of touches Taoism most, most directly. Um, and, um, And yeah, it's sort of like on, you know, to be completely obnoxiously broad brush about it, it's sort of the, sort of the happy version of, of, of, of Buddhism, isn't it, the Taoism, which, um, it's, um, so in a very sort of, the sort of cynical answer that we'll go through to the sincere answer, right.
The cynical answer is, is that, that these traditions, especially Zen, especially really Zen in English, if I'm honest, right. As the American, American, uh, manifestations of it, cause that's what I'm reading, um, really find ways to express the kind of themes that we're tracking here in very, very sort of pungent and well phrased ways.
So if you're quoting in the context of what I'm very often doing, it's a, it's a sort of a treasure trove of those things. But I guess there's a question like, why should that be? One way that I think about it is that, um, there is a lot to be found in Zen especially, but also in Taoism for, but by the person who, um, uh, who sort of, historically in their lives spends too much time in their heads and is a sort of a brain on a stick type person and a left brained person, I guess is the other way of talking about it.
And that certainly describes me. Um, and sometimes it seems like,
like plenty of Zen writing and writing about koans especially, is a, it's almost like an attempt to take the left braininess and go so far with it and push it to such an extreme that it kind of shudders and collapses and you've got no option but to also become a more fully embodied, more emotionally literate right brained person that you've on some level spent your whole life avoiding being.
Um, so I think it's very, I think it's very appealing. to people who sort of, you come at this intellect first, but not in a way that just reaffirms that sort of imbalance in life, right? It's a way that sort of, um, ends up by undermining it in a very, uh, freeing way. And, um, you know, one other way of expressing that is just all these different themes and all these different occurrences that I end up quoting that tend to mainly come from Zen, and to some extent, I think from Taoism, uh, about how the, the problem here, if there is a problem is not that there's no solution to the human situation.
It's that you think there ought to be a solution and you're sort of, um, banging your intellect against the lack of a solution and that, and that, and that, um, there's actually a sort of very deep freedom to be experienced in seeing that, that this is really it. And that, and that attempted solutions are what are, what are causing the, the anxiety in the.
The suffering, but I don't know how that lands with you. Cause I, as I say, it does sound from your questions like you very much know what you're talking about here and possibly well more than me.
[00:24:34] Matt: No, no, I don't think that much. I mean, that resonates with me, um, as well. I think one of the, you know, something I struggle when, when thinking about Zen Buddhism, Taoism, many schools of thought in, of that nature, is it feels to me that, like, as you said, that they do sort of, there is this, um, this sort of deeper truth about the nature of things.
Um, that's revealed there that is maybe not found in Western philosophies. Um, but at the same time, I think Western philosophies and Western traditions have led to many things that I want in my life that I might not be able to find, you know, like Western medicine and science and, um, And I've, I personally struggle with, um, sort of trying to reconcile those two things.
I don't know if you sort of shared that observation or shared that, um, that, that challenge at all.
[00:25:26] Oliver Burkeman: I don't know if it's what you mean, but certainly a, a, a criticism that is made of those traditions and especially of, you know, how those traditions manifest in, you know, upper middle class American mindfulness culture or whatever is that they are, um, you know, um, in some sense passive or accepting of reality in the wrong way, that they're sort of ways to, um, reconcile yourself to things being as they are right now and not, uh, Make the advances that come from some form of dissatisfaction, right?
I mean, if the, on the emotional level, uh, you've got to sort of want to probe further and, um, and really understand how reality is working in a way that feels very sort of analytical philosophy. Um, if you want to make advances and there's a sort of a risk that. Um, approaches derived anyway from Eastern traditions are much more about just sort of feeling the fullness of how things are now and, and being at peace with it.
And you know, it may well be a legitimate critique against, uh, criticism of some, some versions of those, of those ideas. It's a little bit of a get out, but my response is always just to say, look, I think part of what I'm doing here is. And this is just a reflection of my personality on some level is trying to sort of find a way of relating to the world that feels present and fully alive and, um, peaceful and at the same time sort of, uh, retains my, the fact that I am a sort of ambitious person.
I do like accomplishing things. I do like, I would like to make a difference, you know, I'm not the kind of person who, um, can be totally happy with, without. Some sense of that in my life. So I'm sort of trying to sort of rescue ambition and productivity for in a way that isn't, I hope, you know, totally motivated by anxiety and a desperate attempt to sort of dominate reality and feel in control and feel secure.
So where this goes to your question is just that I feel like the kind of people who are interested in this stuff and who are at least a bit like me and who, uh, end up reading my books. There's sort of no danger. Anytime soon of them becoming just completely kind of slackers who don't participate in the sort of, you know, more Western feeling sense of, you know, figuring things out and making progress.
It's really a sort of a, uh, I don't know, is prophylactic the right word? I may be getting that wrong, but you know, it's that sort of, it's that idea of, you know, it's a, it's a balance. It's, it's, um, it's sort of, uh, pushing in the other direction and we're at, we're at, um. Where most people are in no danger of, uh, losing themselves completely and sort of passivity and, and settling for the fact that, you know, yeah, the, the settling for less than they could settle for.
[00:28:45] Matt: Yeah. No, I totally get that. And, um, you know, actually when, I think what you said is, is true that I think many people do. have that concern that getting too into these philosophies could lead to a lack of motivation and so on. Um, I also feel like a lot of the ways that we see these philosophies show up in the, in the modern world today is very instrumental.
So you would
[00:29:09] Oliver Burkeman: Oh, yes. Yeah.
[00:29:10] Matt: to, to make you more productive so that you could just do more. And, um, uh, and I, you know, again, I'm not necessarily saying that that's a bad thing, but, um, I feel like the way your writing gets at it is almost from the other direction. It is almost um, not, okay, we have all these things to do.
How can I instrumentalize, um, Zen Buddhism to make me better at doing those things? It, it, it kind of comes at the other, from the other way around. don't know if that, if that, if that sounds like it makes sense to you.
[00:29:45] Oliver Burkeman: I think so. I mean, I suppose what I want to say is not, is not use these techniques and these traditions and these ways of seeing the world in order to get more done. But it is the case that if you embrace these outlooks and techniques and ways of seeing the world, you will. Get more done, um, which is a subtle difference and maybe a slightly evasive one, but I think it's, um, you know, every other approach, every other part of the sort of field of options that we've been discussing decides that in the end, you know, uh, what either productivity or just sort of showing up in the moment is the thing that, uh, Matters most like either reaching your goals or either just being here.
And I want to say, at least try to explore the avenue that says you don't actually have to choose between these. Um, I'm writing all the time about the necessity of making hard choices, but I think this is one that maybe one doesn't. have to make, and that actually, and this is a very Zen slash Taoist idea, I think, um, it's that, it's that line that I quote in the new book from, uh, Kosho Uchiyama, who says, um, uh, life unhindered by anything manifests as pure activity.
I think that's the thing he says, and this is very, very evident in, you know, just the Tao Te Ching. I'm not getting particularly deep into obscure Taoist texts, but this idea that actually if you sort of find. a kind of peaceful way of being with and part of reality and a way of sort of relaxing back into the situation that you're actually in. It isn't the case that you then, you know, become a useless loser who does less than you would have done before. It's in fact the case that action passes through you, things happen more easily. And this is honestly, just to get a bit more sort of day to day practical about it, this is so the case in my own life. The reason that I don't get things done in my creative work, for example, when I don't get them done is. Essentially, never because I need to sort of, or maybe never because I need to sort of inject more motivation into myself. It's because there's some emotional thing happening where I'm either worried it won't be good enough, or I'm torn between different things to do, or I'm, you know, feeling anxious in some other way.
And that sort of acts as a blocker to, to action and the, to the extent that I can relax that barrier, the action just sort of flows out. naturally. So, you know, there might be a little bit of double dealing here in the way I write these books. Right. Cause I'm sort of saying productivity is not the point, but, but also if you follow this path, you might end up more productive, but I do think that's true.
So yeah,
[00:32:48] Matt: I totally, yeah, I totally think it's true. And I share also personally that, um, that experience. Um, and I also also sometimes find, you know, if you look at the sort of mainstream productivity literature, um, you know, to me, it strikes me that a lot of, a lot of that writing is almost designed. to be a form of procrastination in a way.
Um, you know, you spend a lot of time thinking about systems for getting things done and, uh, very little time doing the important things. And I definitely think that is, that is what happens.
[00:33:22] Oliver Burkeman: Well, it's a fascinating thought, isn't it? Because I mean, I definitely don't want to present myself as somehow morally superior to more mainstream approaches to productivity because that's just another, that's just another trap. But, you know, a person who writes a book outlining a whole detailed systemic approach to productivity has managed to turn something that often can be procrastinatory for people, building systems of productivity, into their professional output and their professional livelihood.
And that's great because, um, you know, they've, they've put a book out, but it's questionable what it is. Does for other people who do not intend on becoming productivity gurus. Um, and, and yeah, I think, uh, a big part of what I'm trying to do, especially in the most recent book, is to sort of pull the rug from under that idea and say, speaking also to myself, of course.
Um, when you think about this idea, you will have the, you'll have the thought, oh, that's great. That's really cool. I have to sort of implement this whole system. I'll do it really well, and I'll do it in six months time when I've got time, and I'll buy all the right supplies. And I'm constantly trying to say, no, no, no, no, no, just.
Just do one thing now and it won't feel good because it feels much more fun to build the complicated systems. And so, yeah, I think productivity definitely gets used as a form of procrastination, ironically. And I'm not even sure that's bad if you see what you're doing, you know, like these days, I'm still totally partial to certain kinds of productivity blog or downloading some app to inspect it and play around with it.
But I think unlike before, I sort of know that I'm on the break when I'm doing that. I'm not actually embarked on some main project of saving my soul through the right, through the right system, uh, and there's no harm in having productivity as a bit of a hobby if you're geeky, like in that way as I am, but it's seeing it as a hobby and not thinking of it as the path to, you know, Holistic fulfillment in life.
[00:35:36] Matt: Yeah. But that, that is the, that is the fundamental issue that I think, um, I think many, many people do see it even maybe implicitly, maybe in a, in a non explicit way as the path to fulfillment in life and the path to meaning in life. And I think, um, you know, I guess on the, on the topic of Eastern versus Western philosophies, um, you know, most listeners to this podcast would be from Western democratic, modern capitalist societies, you know, United States, United Kingdom, Western Europe.
And, um, in these societies, the image of what a successful person. looks like is often somebody who has nailed the productivity game. Big job, big house, big income, very busy. Um, it's almost worn as a badge of honor to be very busy and not have enough time for important things. Um, there was a, there was a quote from your, from your new book, actually from Andrew Wilkinson, um, who's the author of Never Enough and the co founder of, um, Tiny, who says, Most successful people are just a walking anxiety disorder, harnessed for productivity.
Um, which is, which is spot on. It's, it's spot on. Um, this to me is again, another one of these sort of paradoxical, um, issues because when you ask someone in a, you know, sit down for a cup of coffee and you ask them, what, what is your image for a successful life? They will talk about things like family and personal autonomy and so on.
Um, but then. On a behavioral level and on a societal level, this is just not what we see. Um, so what is it, what is your theory behind this dissonance here? This is quite a drastic, um, contradiction. Um, what's your, what's your theory here?
[00:37:14] Oliver Burkeman: mean, I'm sure there are people who just sort of have a completely Uh split attitude to this right who who sort of have a intellectual belief that things like family and things like uh Deep conversations with friends or what life is about but also just really love or are addicted on some level I guess is a better way of putting it to to the grind and to I think for most people, certainly, I dunno, certainly for me, where those, that disjoint arises is usually because I feel like that's how I want to live, but I can't afford to do it yet.
Right. Um, and so, and I write about this, right? This, this notion of saying, okay, um, it will be better if I, If I had more space for rest in my life, say, you know, smelling the roses, walking, walking through the woods. But, um, but, but not just yet. And that could be on multiple timescales, right? It could be like in a few years when I've really got my sort of business up and running and it can do without me for a, for a few months, or it could literally be, Today, right?
It's like, I want to spend an hour, but it can't be this hour because first of all, I've got to get these emails out of the way and it almost doesn't matter which timescale it's on, what you're doing, the crucial distinction there is that you're saying that this way of showing up for life is what you want to do, but you can't do it. Now, and I think the reason for that is the thing we've been discussing, right? It feels like, um, you need to achieve a greater security or control or domination or something, you know, whether it's level of productivity or having dealt with all the demands on you or having achieved a high level of qualifications or something, you know, before you can relax into. Um, and the argument I make in the book, which I, is this idea of starting from sanity rather than striving towards sanity, which is my gloss on the idea that on some level, and in some way, if you want to show up for life in a certain way, you just have to show up for it. Um, right in the middle of the too many emails and they're not being good enough at stuff yet and then feeling out of control.
So to put sort of concrete, quick example on that and I'll stop, but you know, on the rest front that, that could just be as simple as making sure that actually today you do spend half an hour walking through the woods, even if it doesn't feel right, cause you're thinking of all the emails you should be answering or something that yoga teachers like to say, uh, you know, to try to locate the ease and the rest in what it is that you're.
That you're doing, uh, right now, but in some way or another, not postpone that thing, because when you postpone it, you actually just end up. Pushing it further and further away, right? Um, there's that lovely Taoist phrase. I think it is Taoist phrase, uh, beating a drum in search of a fugitive, uh, pursuing your, your project of rest by becoming the kind of person who rests less because you're trying to get through all the stuff that will allow you to rest.
And all that happens is you become a. A less restful person, less willing to rest when the, if the opportunity ever arises. So I think that I've used the rest example, of course, someone else at a different stage in life. It could be a question of buckling down to hard work, right? Maybe now is the time for you to do that.
Not in six months, not when you've. feel like you know what you're doing, but, but now when you don't feel like, you know, what you're doing,
[00:41:10] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that, that, uh, sort of inability to, to rest now is, um, it feels like it's a very deeply, uh, it's, it's, it's a very deeply ingrained inability, um, certainly in, in the cultures that I've lived in. Um, where even when people do make time to rest and, you know, make time for real leisure, it's often done with a, I don't know, a sense of guilt, a sense of, you know, there's just something not, not right about it.
And I've always actually wondered, maybe, you know, if, um, You know, there's this thought that, you know, in the good old days, things were different and, um, you know, time for leisure was, was, um, I don't know, it was, it was sort of easier, there wasn't the sense of guilt when you weren't working, but I actually don't know if that was true, do you know, you know, historically, has it actually changed or has it always been this way?
[00:42:03] Oliver Burkeman: I mean, a lot of this is speculation because you're sort of talking about the inner experience of people hundreds and hundreds of years ago, but I, I think, and I've argued that it makes sense to believe that it would have been very different. It's important to keep in mind that we're talking about people whose lives would have been in all so many ways like harder and, and, you know, in some sense, fuller, especially for ordinary people, you know, fuller of hard experiences and hard work.
But I think that the thing about it being difficult to rest does not come simply from having a lot of hard work to do in your life. It comes from a specific conception of time that sees time itself as a resource that has to be maximized. I think this comes, begins sort of in the centuries before the industrial revolution.
revolution and then really picks up speed afterwards. I think, and I've argued in 4, 000 weeks, you know, based on, you know, definitely based on piecing together little bits of stuff, I'm not making some scientific claim for it, that if you were a medieval peasant, uh, who had such a, like around here in Northern England, say, who had such a sort of terrible life in so many ways, you wouldn't have experienced time problems specifically.
You wouldn't have found it difficult to rest when there wasn't work to do. in front of you that you were doing, because, um, you wouldn't have, you just wouldn't have had that sort of concept of this being time that could or should be put to some other use. You just would be in your life right now, and it would be a restful moment in your life.
Maybe it would be a religiously enforced Sabbath. And then another time you'd be in the middle of a very High exertion moment in your life, which would be, uh, harvesting crops or building houses or something. Um, that notion that you're sort of pulled in two directions and that you maybe should be making better use of time, I think is ultimately like quite a. quite a modern idea that has reached a sort of a ultimate level now way, you know, the way we try to defend against it is by making sure we spend all our free time training for 10ks or setting skill acquisition goals or trying to remember everything you read which people on the internet seem to be obsessed with at the moment
[00:44:40] Matt: Yeah. Um, yeah, but you know, and this was, this will lead us on to, onto the new book shortly. But, um, even there, there is this difficulty where, um, you know, let's take something like, um, I don't want to just call it capitalism because then it feels like I'm being anti capitalist. That's not what I mean. But this, this, this attitude towards maximizing time, maximizing use of time to, to maximize output, let's say maximize productivity, maximize efficiency.
Um, Yeah. Even if suppose that were the goal. So forget about finding leisure, suppose it were just the goal to maximize productivity. Um, I feel like the, the place that people get to is one of burnout and doing busy work and actually not being productive at all. And this is, and this is what you actually see.
Um, And so again, this is, this is a bit of a paradox where, uh, we're in this state where not only are we not experiencing the leisure and the rest that we want, but also, um, we're not being very productive either.
[00:45:39] Oliver Burkeman: Yes. Yeah,
[00:45:40] Matt: so it's kind of like the worst of both worlds.
[00:45:43] Oliver Burkeman: Yeah. No, I think that's right. And I think um, you know, uh to take the sort of Anti capitalist version of it. I don't really think I'm sufficiently opposed to the basic system of capitalism to call myself one But an anti capitalist but the but the in terms of where we are now and this phase that people call late capitalism although how they know I don't understand but
your You're serving an instrumental goal, right? When you, when you end up spending all your time scrolling, uh, frustratingly through, through social media, or when you buy app after app that promises to, to transform your productivity. It's just that that goal is not your own. Set of interests and goals. So just take the sort of critic of the system approach to it, which definitely has its limitations, but I think it's worth thinking about.
Um, it's the system working well, it's just the system is sort of mining you for value to have you, um, buy the apps and expose your eyeballs to the advertising. Um, and. I can imagine sort of diehard critic of capitalism saying, well, what did you expect? Why, why, why, why do you think that this system should serve personal productivity?
Um, uh, you know, about things that matter to us. And I think, you know, I think that's what I'm, that's the thorough where I'm working. It's like, is there a way? Cause I'm not. This isn't, these aren't books calling for this complete revolution of the systems in which we, in which we live. Um, is, are there ways to recover in the world in which we actually find ourselves?
Um, which involves advocating for some political changes, but it's also just about dealing with your to do list and your ambitions when you get to your desk at, 9am on a Monday morning, you know, are there ways that we can sort of rescue serving our own purposes inside this and and not fall into that that trap where it's sort of instrumental, but actually not even serving your own, your own goals.
And I think there are, and I think there are ways of doing this and there are better and worse ways of engaging with the reality in which we find ourselves. And I think there's definitely been worse realities over the span of human, uh, history. And it's all just a question of, yeah, how you interact with that, that reality and sort of find a certain kind of.
independence and freedom, uh, to build a meaningful life inside it. Yeah.
[00:48:33] Matt: Well, I think this, this leads really nicely to your, your new book. So your new book is called Meditations for Mortals. Um, and It's a, it's actually a very nice, I think 4, 000 weeks, um, is surprisingly philosophical for people who think it's going to be a, just a time management productivity book. It's very philosophical.
Um, meditations for mortals, uh, is significantly more actionable and practical, but not without losing that, um, sort of philosophical undertone, which I thought was really nice. It's not, um, it's definitely not a, one of those, again, mainstream productivity books. Um, one, one thing that you wrote in the introduction was that I sincerely hope you find this book useful.
To be completely honest with you though, I wrote it for myself. Let's move on to the book. Why did you choose to write this book?
[00:49:29] Oliver Burkeman: there's always like the reality and then the sort of retrospective rationalization. Um, I knew I wanted to write another book. I know about myself at this point that I can only really write the book that, you know, I want to write. I need to write at that moment. Um, so it never feels like a choice.
Uh, it feels like I'm trying to discover what the thing is that I need to try to figure out or express. Um, and in some early versions of this, it was going to be like a quote for every day of the year and all sorts of like ideas that got bandied about. But what came out is this sort of four week structure with a short chapter for each day of the month.
Um, I'm fascinated to know whether people really do read it in that way. I sort of suggest it, but I don't think it's something I can hope to, uh, control. And, and trying to find this way of, you're right that it's a lot more actionable, I hope, and I appreciate your kind words about it, but, but I think that the main mechanism for that action is seeing the world a little differently.
Rather than following my particular technique or method or three steps. There's some of that, you know, cause I think it can be useful, but I'm trying to sort of deliver tiny little perspective shifts on a sort of paced basis over the course of reading the book or of a month. If you, if you do it that way, um, because I think they are the things that make the difference and that actually sort of.
allow, permit action, permit you to do the things that you know you wanted to be doing. So in the reason it was a book I needed to write for myself was that like I was more and more aware that even after writing 4, 000 Weeks I could have an extremely, what felt like an extremely deep understanding of What's going on here and how I want to show up in this life and just not do it.
Like just completely, just not, not actually do it. Um, so this book is very much about sort of, it's about the challenge of actually doing things as opposed to thinking about them or building systems for them. And it strives to be a book that is structured such that that will be its effect on the reader.
It may be that no book can ultimately. Jump that gap between knowing what to do and doing it right because it's still a book and um, and you can still sort of Read it, think, Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. And then put it aside and get on with your life. But I'm sort of trying, pushing against that on every, on every page, uh, in the hope that, um, it will actually sort of be something that right in the middle of people's day to day lives, you know, they can read and that will sort of start having a little bit of an effect.
right there and then.
[00:52:30] Matt: I mean, I personally think the structure will serve it very well. Um, there is, you know, it's quite, it's quite common these days for people to get audio books, for example, and listen to them on speed read on, you know, 2x, um, or get something like Blinkist and get the short summary. And there is something, the word perverse is too negative, but getting something like 4, 000 weeks and listening to it at 2x.
A two X so that you can get to the next book and absorb all that information. Feels like it's somewhat missing the point. Um,
[00:53:01] Oliver Burkeman: Yeah. I was always, I always joked that there should be some, I should like be able to come to some arrangement with Audible that they could somehow disable that function only on, only on that
[00:53:10] Matt: I
[00:53:10] Oliver Burkeman: Right. It's just like, no, you can't actually, you can't listen to it. Um, yeah,
[00:53:15] Matt: mean, the, the, the structure of, you know, um, four weeks, seven days, um, per week, so 28 sort of daily readings, I think it does. It does really. So it, well, I didn't actually read it in that way. Um, but, um, I, I, I got the sense that this could work very well.
[00:53:33] Oliver Burkeman: I I'm glad to hear it. And yeah, you know, maybe the most people don't read it that way, but even so, I think I'm hoping that having that be the structure conveys something, um, whether or not you happen to actually do it that way, right? That sense of these are incremental. These are things to, maybe they're things to return to if you don't decide to do them day by day.
Maybe you want to sort of. read it all in once and then come back to the bits that stuck in your mind on another day. There's just some sort of feeling of patience. I think that comes from that, from that, whether or not, yeah, it is a book in large part about sort of surrendering the attempt at total control of things.
So I certainly can't get too controlly about how. other people read a book that they've
[00:54:21] Matt: Yes, yes. Um, I thought what could be, what could be interesting is, I mean, so there are 28 sort of different themes, uh, what could be interesting is picking two or three that really stood out to me as particularly interesting or useful, um, and exploring them. Uh, the first one is from. day 13, uh, titled finding focus in chaos.
And here you talk about the three hours rule, um, which is, which is very fascinating. So maybe you can tell me about the, the three hours rule.
[00:54:53] Oliver Burkeman: the three, what I've sort of ended up calling the three to four hour rule is, is, is, is just, um, arises from the observation that, um, In the first instance, if you go back over the daily routines of, of, um, all sorts of authors and artists, scientists, scholars, composers, you, you find this recurring number of three to four hours in every 24 hour period that they would dedicate to the thing that was the sort of core.
of uh, of their work, right? So actually writing, actually painting, actually composing. Um, and there's a, a lot of this, as I say in the book comes from a book by Alex Pang called rest where he really sort of, um, he deserves a lot of credit for like, it's. Finding all these, um, all these, uh, all these cases and there's other research, right?
So it's not purely anecdotal cherry picking, uh, to suggest that there's something powerful about that amount of time as a sort of sustainable limit to, um, really deep focused work in the course of, of a day. Not that you can't, couldn't, if you had to do more, but that if you wanted to keep it up. day after day.
Uh, it's quite a good idea to limit it to that. Now, obviously a lot of these figures had like 10 servants to handle all the difficult other stuff of life. And they just got to spend the rest of the time relaxing. And I'm not really making the case that you should do four hours on whatever it is that you focus on in your work and then just go, you know, can afford to do nothing else and go have fun.
It is though that I think if you have this level of autonomy over your time, which increasingly I think. People doing knowledge work do have. Um, it's a really good idea to, um, try to sort of ring fence three or four hours, either all in one big chunk or in maybe two chunks at high energy points of the day, really try to defend those hours from interruption and to be sort of ready and well slept and prepared to use them well. But at the same time, and I think this is a really important second aspect of it, not to try very hard to, um, ring fence or to protect the rest of your time. In other words, to have a sort of realistic sense of your limits when it comes to, um, dictating how time goes in the day. Right? I mean, I have quite an unusual degree of autonomy over how I spend my time between about, you know, eight in the morning It depends on the day because school runs and things, but, but basically, you know, a big chunk of the day, I have a lot of freedom and even I find that, you know, it's not actually a fruitful way to interact with the world to sort of lock down that whole period and be like monkish for all of it.
It's a lot more useful and resilient and less brittle to sort of say, okay, yes. I'm going to shoot for these chunks of real focus and I'm not going to make appointments in those times and I'm going to try not to be disturbable in those times. But the rest of the time, actually, I don't know in advance that an interruption or an unplanned happening is going to be worse than the thing that I think should have happened.
And I, and it creates all sorts of extra problems to try to exert that level of focus. of control over time. This is a, um, very friendly and collegial disagreement that I have with Cal Newport that I'm looking forward to discussing in more detail with him soon. And other advocates of time blocking and time boxing, right?
I'm sort of pushing back a bit against that and saying, yeah, do it in a certain way and be open to reality the rest of the time.
[00:58:43] Matt: Yeah. Interesting. I look forward to, I look forward to hearing that one. Um, I mean, it, it, it, it opens the question though, You know, the, the, the three to four hours rule historically, we've seen so many great figures kind of use this rule, um, and be very successful as a, as a result, I would guess. Um, and I, it feels like, you know, really thinking about it, um, It feels right, you know, a knowledge worker trying to work hard for eight hours, it gets pretty tiring.
No one feels like they're that productive. Um, and yet, when we look at how people choose to work to be most productive, it is certainly nothing like the three hours rule, I would say. Um, And even with the knowledge of maybe, you know, working hard and distracted for three or four hours a day, being the most effective way to get things done.
Um, working less than, let's say, the standard eight hours, you know, people feel a bit off, they feel a bit guilty. And so there's this big question as to why there would be such a difference in, um, you know, what people actually choose to do and how they choose to work. And the sort of knowledge of what they think must be most productive.
I don't know if you have, if you have thoughts, and I would actually love to know, did you use the three to four hours rule? Do you use it in your, in your daily life? Did you use it when writing this book?
[01:00:08] Oliver Burkeman: Uh, yes, and I, I do use it. I mean, I, it's reached a point in my day where I'm not sure whether it really, I mean, yeah, let me try to sort of answer that bit first and then back into your other question. I do do this. I don't do it in a particularly top down willed planned way compared to how I used to, right?
So I, I sort of, um, seek to go through the day almost as intuitively as possible, but I also know from a lot of. Experience and following or ignoring intuitions that, that, that just to end up spending about that amount of time in focus is important. So then obviously then the question becomes, well, okay, how do you, how do I protect it from other, other things?
And so. Yeah, I sort of have, I try to be quite strict about keeping portions of the day free from appointments and portions of the week free from appointments and concentrating them in other portions of the week, just so that there is that opportunity for the three or four hours to, um, to come to be.
That's not quite the same as saying that I make it my, Business to always begin at 7 45 AM and work for exactly this amount of time and et cetera, et cetera. I've got sort of looser and freer, and I hope more Taoist about, uh, about that approach, but it's still the same idea, right? It's like leave space in your life for this to happen.
If you possibly can as to what people. Generally do when they're trying to, I mean, it's interesting, obviously it's not what people generally do because what people generally do is just be very reactive and try to sort of, um, you know, um, get through more and more and more and more things and hammer their way through a to do list.
But you may also be referring to what sort of people who are thinking carefully about their productivity do and ideas about sort of going into full on monk mode and sort of going in the opposite direction from that sort of purely reactive, uh, Uh, mode, and I guess I just think that both those extremes are ill suited to what we're trying to do, or most people are trying to do, which is to, um, which is to pursue intentional goals in a setting where it actually helps everybody.
And they may well be a condition of their employment to be, you know, You know, available and, and reactive. So I think it's just a question of sort of, uh, opposing the perfectionistic urge that says, well, it must be one or the other, right? It must either be that we, uh, have an incredibly strict schedule or that we.
Just have to sort of power through life as best we can and say, no, actually it is just both. You have to do so one of them for some of the day and one of them for another part of the day. Obviously there are plenty of professional situations where you don't have the relevant degree of autonomy. And if your job involves responding to an email within an hour, Regardless of when it comes in between eight and six, then, then that, and you decide that you're going to stay in that job, then, then that's, uh, that requires a different way of, of, of doing things.
[01:03:25] Matt: Nevertheless, I think, um, it is, it is quite a, it's a nice rule to be made aware of, that, uh, that something like three to four hours of hard work is, Sort of enough and, and, and sort of the best that one could do versus if it were the 10 or 11 hour rule, this would not be received as
[01:03:44] Oliver Burkeman: No. And, you know, even if you're one of those people who's in a situation where you end up just sitting at your desk because you're in a corporate culture that rewards the pre, your presence there. I think that is all very different than how it used to be. But if you are. At least you can know inside your own mind not to feel too bad about it if you've, if you've actually done a good four hours of, um, of the, of the core of the core work that you're involved in.
Yeah.
[01:04:07] Matt: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But nevertheless, I think people do, um, people do feel guilty sometimes by not, and it actually takes, it's very nicely to, um, another one of your. your meditations, which is day 15. Um, what if this were easy? Um, which was again, a very, very interesting one. Um, maybe, maybe I'll give it to you. I think that there are two interesting fallacies that relate to what we just said, but maybe I'll give it to, to you.
Tell me about the, um, the, what if this were easy,
[01:04:34] Oliver Burkeman: This is, this is a chapter where I'm just asking readers to reflect on the possibility that one of the reasons that, It seems difficult to do things, to get things done, to get around to things, to live lives the way we want to be living them. It's just that we, we sort of assume a level of difficulty that isn't always there. I've written a lot and thought a lot down the years about the downsides of kind of, um, simplistic, positive thinking, where if you just dream that you can do something, then it's automatically comes into being, and I'm sort of somewhat associated with being against that. But it's really important to see that that is not the same as saying that anything worth doing is going to feel difficult.
I think there's a real problem with some of the kind of personal development that's going on. material that's popular today, especially the sort of, you know, stuff that's implicitly largely focused on a male audience. Um, where really just kind of, you know, the, the idea that life must necessarily be a sort of.
tough fight requiring hard discipline and it's just like, you know, getting to the point where you don't even care because you just love the pain of it and all the stuff. You know, I'm not saying that doesn't have a certain truth actually, but it is very easy to slip into this situation where it's like, well, if it's worth doing, it must be going to be really hard.
And then it becomes really hard because you're, you're going at it in that, in, in that frame of mind and the possibility. And that, that, you know, Something that you've been putting off or that you're that you care very much about could actually just go really really easily is something I still need to remind myself about this all the time, but it's but there's a sort of immediate feeling of lightness and Of enthusiasm and lots of other things that are all just good things to have on board if you're trying to do something, right?
so I think that there's a danger in thinking that If something is important, it's going to be hard. Um, and also a danger in the flip side, which is that if something feels like it's taking a lot of effort, then it must be worth doing, uh, cause that's the kind of mindset where you. You know, have an incredibly tough job and assume therefore that it's a meaningful job just because it really exhausts you when maybe that's not the case.
[01:07:14] Matt: Yeah. I mean, this, this one, um, I don't know where exactly it comes from. I've got, I've got some ideas, you know, when, uh, in many, in many circumstances in life, there is sort of a delay between what we do and the output and the outcome. And, um, so, you know, in order to, you know, to, predict, um, the outcome. I think often we do look to our sense of, of effort.
And in some circumstances it is a very good, that is a very good way to, to do it. You know, um, sometimes you do need to put in the effort to achieve the outcome, but I think then that gets confused. That we, we, we, we sort of conflate the sense of effort with the thing. in itself. Um, but something that it brings to mind, you know, if that, if that is trainable, um, when it comes to something like teaching or parenting or, um, you know, helping others learn, I think parenting is a good example.
You would hope to, to sort of bring them up in a way that they wouldn't, um, internalize this no pain, no gain. Uh, sort of mindset in every day. Um, how do you think about this and maybe more generally some of the other principles that you write about in the context of parenting and in the context of, of, you know, bringing up a child?
[01:08:32] Oliver Burkeman: Yeah, it's a, it's a fascinating question and you know, I, I think about it a lot. We have a seven year old son. Um, I sort of.
Default again and again. Well, I mean, I think there are a couple of things. One is the thing that is just a cliche, but it's just absolutely true and shouldn't be resisted just because it's a cliche is that, is that, um, is the, what makes the difference is sort of how one is and what one shows rather than sort of lessons that you explicitly communicate.
And so, you know, the obvious examples, right? There's no point having all sorts of, um, stated attitudes and rules towards screen time if you're just scrolling through your phone all the time. Um, when it comes to one's relationship with, with kids and, and, um, I think that the, the, the sort of subtler version of that, of that point is that, um, It always seems to me like the place where there is the most work to be done is sort of inside me, you know, it's like, um, it's that lovely line from Jung that the, the greatest burden the child must bear is the unlived life of the parent.
This, this notion and more generally speaking, you know, if there's like, if there's stuff inside you that you're not working on and thinking about and seeking to acknowledge, then it just sort of gets put on to, um, People around you, and especially young, impressionable children around you. Um, and so I'm sort of drawn back and back and back to the idea that actually what my sort of key job is to be as a parent actually is to be open enough to taking time for my own sort of, um, uh, you know, thinking about these matters and talking about them and journaling about them and just sort of, you know, uh, my own anxieties, my own, my own sort of, um, Somewhat sort of addictive, uh, attitude to work and productivity and all the things that really the books are about.
Um, so that when I'm not doing that and when it's dinner time or when I'm out on a trip with my son or just hanging out around the house, like it's not. part of the agenda. So in a way, I'm almost wanting to say that when people ask, like, what'd you do with this about parenting? It's like, well, that worry is itself another part of this.
Like, how do I, how do I do it? Right. Obviously that could strike some people's ears as sort of irresponsible. It's like, Oh, you're just, you're just sort of thinking about you're finding a way to justify thinking about yourself instead of. Uh, the other people in your family. But that really is the part of it that, that I see having a difference, you know, like when, when I am, when I am doing better at sort of feeling all my feelings and not treating my own life as a sort of terrible slog, uh, to try to fit everything in, much less likely to be falling into what for me is the biggest sort of, um, risk category of, um, the experience of parenting, which is sort of.
somewhere quite near in the back of my mind, but quite near the front of my mind thinking when I'm in a family situation that like, I really ought to be getting more work done. Um, and being able to let that go for the times that are not work times, it requires first and foremost being, having a sort of a saner attitude to the work rather than figuring out how to convey these sane attitudes, uh, to the kids.
That's my argument anyway.
[01:12:36] Matt: Yeah, fantastic. Do you, do you, beyond, um, beyond the work itself and beyond the writing and journaling and so on, do you, do you have any particular. Um, practices or habits or things that you do to actually, you know, to cultivate that, to practice that. For example, a meditation practice or something equivalent.
Is there anything that you personally do to work on that?
[01:13:02] Oliver Burkeman: The closest things that I sort of have to really regular practices in my life are journaling for sure, sort of morning pages type, type daily journaling and, uh, and walking really, um, especially where we are in the countryside and Northern England is just a sort of spectacular place that I'm so happy to be able to go on.
Kind of short strolls. I don't think you need live in a lovely place to benefit from walking But it's it's a real sort of it will be unforgivable To live where we do and not to and not to not to benefit from that I've gone through a lot of iterations of sort of okay now I'm going to meditate every day and okay this and okay that and I've found that eventually these are things that sort of they have to be allowed to Emerge, they have to be things that you find yourself drawn to do.
And then, you know, a few weeks later, you realize that they've become daily habits rather than top down imposed habits. So with meditation, having gone through all sorts of different phases, it is sort of coming back a little bit into my life much more than it, than it did, but it's coming back in that sort of.
You know, I find myself slightly more frequently being drawn to do it rather than I've got a plan to impose it. And I think that is more sustainable in the long term as well. So, um, yeah, I'm more, uh, overall answer is I'm at a stage in all this where actually being willing to be led by intuition a bit more means not having a whole like 10 part. protocol for, um, that I'm going to try to stick to every day.
[01:15:04] Matt: Excellent. Fantastic. Um, I know, I know our time is, uh, our time is coming short. Um, maybe as we start to bring it towards a close, um, one, one thing I just want to say actually upfront as we, as we go to it is just a, just a statement of gratitude. So, um, You know, books, I think as you said before, it's a, books can only do so much, um, and it is not common for, um, a book to meaningfully change somebody's life.
I think your, your, your book, Certainly 4000 Weeks, for many people has, um, changed lives. Maturity changed people's life that we've had guests on this podcast to have recommended unprompted that, that, that book. Um, and it's certainly been very meaningful for me. So, before getting to the wrap, I just want to say thank you.
And, um, I certainly,
[01:15:50] Oliver Burkeman: just going to say thank you and express my gratitude. It always is slightly staggering to me that this could be the case, but it's lovely to hear it. So thank you. Yeah.
[01:16:03] Matt: Oh, very good. Well, I, I very, very seldom explicitly tell people to buy something, but I will explicitly tell everyone listening to please go and buy that book. And also the, also all of his new book, because they are, they're, they're great. Very, very good. Um, uh, Oliver, did you have any, um, any sort of a call to action for the audience?
So besides what I've just said, anything else that you would, anywhere else you would, you would choose to, to send people,
[01:16:26] Oliver Burkeman: I mean, the, the, the stage that I'm at with the new book out means that I, the idea of answering with anything other than please consider buying Meditations for Mortals would be kind of very, um, uh, Anathema to me, but, um, well, it's all, all the information for that and other things that are on my website, oliverburkman.
com and that's where I do, where it's where you can sign up for this every two weeks. ish newsletter, the imperfectionist, uh, which has really become a much, a big part of my life and the sort of interactions with readers and the whole form of newsletter writing has been a huge eye opener. So that's another thing that I do and that's completely free.
So,
[01:17:06] Matt: excellent, I'll, I'll link both of those to the, to the notes here. Um, two, two questions as we bring it to a wrap. Um, the first one actually relates back to 4, 000 weeks. I noticed that on your website, you have a UK version, an American version and a Canadian version and they have very different book covers, um, which I thought was very interesting.
I think one of them has a scene of an ocean. One of them is sort of like abstract. One of them has a sequence of increasing ripening and eventually rotting bananas, um, which I found fascinating. There's some marketing. mechanics behind there that decided these covers will suit the different audiences.
Tell me about those covers. Why, why three different covers and why those covers?
[01:17:48] Oliver Burkeman: it's fascinating. I mean, strictly, as you may know, strictly in book contracts, um, the jacket image is not usually something that the author is given sort of final. Veto rights on that said I have loved all the three covers you mentioned and most of the international covers that 4, 000 weeks ends up on because obviously publishers would much rather that the author liked the cover It helps, you know makes them willing to sort of promote it and all the rest of it So, um, you know these ultimate decisions lie with them the sort of wisdom of the Marketing departments of the different publishers.
So I'm a little bit sort of on the outside of it, but I've been involved and I love all, all the images, even so different as they are. It's fascinating to me because I think, you know, we've talked in this conversation about this idea of whether it's possible to sort of rescue salvage an idea that like being ambitious and productive is an important thing.
legitimate thing in life and also being rested and peaceful is kind of a good definition for an enjoyable state of mind. And I guess, you know, trying to get both of those in a single image is the challenge. And I guess the British one, which for 4, 000 weeks certainly is, um, although this has all happened again in a similar way, actually for the, for meditations for mortals, the Brits so too.
Emphasize the, the, the relaxing end of that. And the Americans sort of emphasize in certain ways, the slightly more, um, action productivity focused end of that, which is, which is just in a sense, that's just like a cultural cliche, right? It's, um, that, that, that, that idea. Um, and I should say that because of how this works, the Australian, New Zealand jackets end up being the British, uh, jacket by and large.
Um,
I sort of love it. And especially in the case of meditations for mortals, which is a, the British cover is a, is a, a diver, uh, just about to hit the water. And it's kind of a, that's a very nice sort of way to balance those two ideas, I think of rest and action. And in the American case, it's done in a more textual way.
It's, it's all in the typefaces and I really love those two. And then the Canadian cover of the rotting bananas is just kind of hilarious. And, um, and maybe it's. Maybe there's a cultural cliche, cliche there too, about the sort of, um, wry humor of that, um, of that image. And I genuinely like sometimes people from, uh, readers in America say they prefer the British cover or vice versa.
And they have very strong feelings about it, but I always just like, I think these are all just kind of different ways of trying to get to that, that synthesizing point, which you can probably never get to perfectly. I certainly don't think I get to it perfectly in the, in the words in between the. The, the covers, but I think they're all just different ways to try to, to try to sort of get approximate that sort of balance between peace of mind and, and action.
[01:21:08] Matt: Yeah, very good. Um, so certainly the rotting bananas is, is what sticks in my head now. It's not the cover that I've got, but having seen it, it's, it's what comes to mind when I hear the name. So whoever made that one did a very good, very good
[01:21:22] Oliver Burkeman: was a penguin Canada, uh, invention that has been used in a few other foreign markets as well. Yeah.
[01:21:27] Matt: Very good. Um, last question. So we've been talking about, um, your books, but we've also talked about books that you have read, um, thinkers that have influenced you. And a question that I love to ask my guests towards, uh, towards the end is, um, book recommendations and in particular, which books have most influenced you, um, personally?
Professionally, personally, you know, what, what comes to mind for you?
[01:21:49] Oliver Burkeman: so just off the top of my head, um, In the field of sort of psychology and the sort of deep stuff we've been talking about here and there in this conversation, or more than here and there, I think the, the books of James Hollis is, uh, uh, ones that I often mention, uh, including a book that was my first entry point into his work and really into Jungian psychology as a whole, which is called Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life.
Recommend that very much. Don't be too put off by the title. I think as long as you're like, I don't know, late twenties, probably you can decide that it's a good time to read it. It sounds a little bit like you have to be 50 at least or something, but that's, that's, that's not the point. It's a wonderful, deep book about, um, sort of engaging with, you know, Reality internal and external in the, in the fullest way.
Um, in terms of writing, uh, um, and sort of like books that have inspired me. Uh, in writing, I'm a, I'm a huge fan of all the work of, uh, Janet Malcolm, who, um, is a nonfiction writer who wrote, they're not similar to my books in their content at all, or style really, but she's just such an impressive nonfiction writer.
Um, she wrote a book called the journalist and the murderer, which is very famous and a bit notorious and a whole lot of other very short books, but they're incredibly sort of tightly written. Uh, they have a, they're sort of, they're sort of, um, They're not very sort of florid and over the top, but in a very restrained way, they're very funny and really sort of set a model for writing nonfiction about ideas, which I guess is what I aspire to do on some level.
And then finally, just because it's coming to my mind on time management and productivity, uh, there's a book that I discovered a few years ago by a Dutch Zen writer called Paul Lumens and the book is called Time Surfing. I don't know if this has come across your radar. And it's really a book about a completely intuitive way of managing and navigating time.
It's like some of the ideas that we've been discussing here really sort of push to the max in terms of throw away the to do lists and, uh, trust that your intuitions and reality will, will see you right.
[01:24:20] Matt: Yeah, we'll link all of those. And I think I've got some, some good reading ahead of me. Um, Oliver, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for, for joining me. Thank you for your work. And, um, yeah, people really enjoy this.
[01:24:31] Oliver Burkeman: Thank you. I've really, really enjoyed this conversation for real. Thank you.
Oliver Burkeman: Shortness of Life | Paradox of Productivity | Rethinking Time Management